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David_Jones

Hello, With Ground Source Heat Pumps does any one have any feed back on the make 'Dream' I see on ebay occationally?. There are very cheap in comparison to other brands. I can understand 'the more you pay the better it tends to be' rule but the Dream seams to be about a quarter of the cost of a familiar brand. I would be grateful for any information.
 
If you want to receive the RHI you'll need to have your system designed and installed by an MCS certified installer - additionally the heat pumps tghemselves have to be MCS certified.

Certainly couldn't find them as a certified product on the MCS database.

Reason for lower costs are most likely to be the real world performance figures in cold temperatures. Heat Pumps are simply 'electrcity multipliers', when you get to lower temperatures, SOME rely on a built in in-line immersion heater to get the required flow temperature - in that case the REAL performance drops through the floor (1-1 if you're lucky)
 
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I have a 8kw dream heat pump fitted to a 3 bedroom bungalow and so far it is performing well, with underfloor heating unfortunately no rhi but the unit was only ÂŁ850.00 and and at the time of installation was unsure if the rhi would ever happen. Will see what happens in the winter in terms of its performance. There is no in line heater and its using 1.6 kwh when running currently
 
Hello Eco, Thanks for your reply. It's good to find some one with a 'dream heat pump' . I assume you have just installed it and have not yet run a winter ?. I have a 3 bed house (170 meter square floor space) with underfloor heating. Its a new build with building regulation draft proofing and 100mm wall insulation. Been told 11KW (if I remember right) off the Heating SAP calculation is adequate. Do you know if the RHI ever kicked in?.....when I last looked at heat pumps it was still in the land of never just felt at the time the extra the RHI approved boilers with what seamed like no guarantee of a payment was riskey. Also how did you measure the 1.6 KW? I just assumed the power intake might vary depending on the loading. If it's OK I like to stay in touch via ukplumbersforum and see how things work in the winter time. Are you a Air Source or ground...grounds sounds a bit too much the ground but I like the idea of building the system and have plans of staying here some time but see how things pan out. Thanks Again, Dave Jones
 
See other post, Domestic RHI (DRHI) goes live early spring next year, my direct sources in Ofgem and DECC say it will happen (election in 2015 :))
ASHP's are eligible for self builders and retrofit under the DRHI, however they need to have been installed and certified by an MCS certified installer to qualify. You have until 22nd October this year to get that done.

If you do it yourself, fine, it will just cost you and you'll make some savings.
If you do it properly with an MCS certified company you will be net cash better off. (They'll pay more than it costs you)

Go cheap and lose in the long run, you pays ya money and makes ya choice.

From the MCS website:
The domestic RHI will launch in spring 2014 and will be available to domestic customers who have installed renewable heat technology and meet the RHI eligibility criteria from 15th July 2009. Any domestic customers will be required to supply an MCS installation certificate with their application. However MCS is aware that in some cases heat technology installations may not have been previously registered on the MCS Installation Database (MID).
Therefore, following the RHI announcement, MCS has agreed with DECC that all MCS compliant installations designed, installed and commissioned since 15th July 2009, but not yet registered on the MID, must be registered by Tuesday 22nd October 2013 at the latest. After this date it will no longer be possible to register these installations and obtain an MCS certificate.
 
It ain't going back this time! DECC and Ofgem are working very hard (for Civil Servants :) ) to ensure it is delivered, an edict has come down from on high, to:
a) get it right first time (they won't, as we received this morning an announcement that due to a c**k up in the wording that the current regulations need urgent rewriting and The House isn't sitting till December, so those changes can't be ratified :) )
b) start it by Spring 2014 - that will happen (and then there will be a summer of clarifications, changes and legal battles :) )
 
Alternative scenario:

Cameron will have a panic about some headline in the Daily Mail, and decide to have a re-shuffle. As a consequence, some 3rd rate politician you have never heard of will replace some other 3rd rate politician that you have never heard of, as minister of state at DECC.

This appointment will have nothing to do with said 3rd rate politician actually knowing anything about energy policy - it will simply be a pay-off for some political favour done elsewhere.

New appointee will change timeline, there will be another postponement, which will make 2 column inches on page 17 of Daily Mail, because no-one in the wider population gives a monkeys.

</cynicism>
 
The government will 'move' much of the money into something far more 'visible' to the majority in time for the election and the drhi will wait a bit longer.

To be honest I'm not really bothered about it, I'm not looking at renewables anymore, lost interest and can't remember the last time a customer asked about them. The biggest thing round our way is twinning in stoves.
 
The government will 'move' much of the money into something far more 'visible' to the majority in time for the election and the drhi will wait a bit longer.

To be honest I'm not really bothered about it, I'm not looking at renewables anymore, lost interest and can't remember the last time a customer asked about them. The biggest thing round our way is twinning in stoves.

Whilst I wouldn't go that far, I share Simon's experience. For all the talk and column inches devoted to renewables, we have seen precious little actual demand. Lots of interest and lots of quotes, but not very much in actual sales. Most of what has gone has been into new build or prestige projects.

I also sense a general drift in public opinion towards a slightly more sceptical view of climate change - not necessarily disbelief, more "what will be, will be".
 
Interesting comments, perhaps it's one of you get what you expect - our order book is full...
 
Fair play, you've paid you're money and away you go. Bu not for me.
 
Hi David, Yes I installed a bran new 15 Kw Dream ASHP in Sept 2012. It`s working brilliant my whole house has been so cosy, a 4 bed semi & attic conversion, with a 6 Mtr UHF conservatory and heated Koi Pond.
Well worth the capital outlay of ÂŁ1,500 plumbed into my flow & return, I have the system wired to operate via an optimizer/stat. I set that to maximise the COP factor so that the ASHP does not ice over, (it costs to melt ice) when this happens the COP factor is not very good, as on all ASHP`s. That is why I use my Dream as a Hybrid when the dew point is likely cause less efficient use. The Hybrid use has enabled me to only use 20% of the gas I used on many previous years, that's now 80% of my heat coming from a more eco source, AIR. The Leccy use has not risen by very much ( I don`t think all my LED lamps have saved that much) so my outlay payback should be on track in about 4 years. The ASHP is controlled by my optimisation / stat wired so that when it`s inhibited, the Gas boiler will take over if frosty. Although the ASHP output temp is set lower, that has proved to be acceptable as I have some oversized rads & UFH thermal store, when it`s colder the gas boiler (at a higher temp) overcomes the greater heat losses. The "shoulder" months are when the COP values really pay off at 3, 4, or nearly 5 times the input Kw, so even allowing for high leccy prices over gas there is quite a good saving. Some have Mitsubishi, Toshiba or ( mine ) a Sanyo with the more efficient defrost system of a 4 way valve instead of elements to melt the winter ice. As you can tell I have had a mainly electrical career for well over fifty years so I have a relay for all zone digistats to be "ON" via the heat source in use. Many of the quotes that I had were horrendous ÂŁ14 K to over ÂŁ20 K for a system that is little better (if at all ) for under ÂŁ2K as a pensioner I am well happy for such an efficient system. Hope you have found these comments helpful. PS. No connection other than a satisfied pensioner.
 
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Hi David, Yes I installed a bran new 15 Kw Dream ASHP in Sept 2012. It`s working brilliant my whole house has been so cosy, a 4 bed semi & attic conversion, with a 6 Mtr UHF conservatory and heated Koi Pond.
Well worth the capital outlay of ÂŁ1,500 plumbed into my flow & return, I have the system wired to operate via an optimizer/stat. I set that to maximise the COP factor so that the ASHP does not ice over, (it costs to melt ice) when this happens the COP factor is not very good, as on all ASHP`s. That is why I use my Dream as a Hybrid when the dew point is likely cause less efficient use. The Hybrid use has enabled me to only use 20% of the gas I used on many previous years, that's now 80% of my heat coming from a more eco source, AIR. The Leccy use has not risen by very much ( I don`t think all my LED lamps have saved that much) so my outlay payback should be on track in about 4 years. The ASHP is controlled by my optimisation / stat wired so that when it`s inhibited, the Gas boiler will take over if frosty. Although the ASHP output temp is set lower, that has proved to be acceptable as I have some oversized rads & UFH thermal store, when it`s colder the gas boiler (at a higher temp) overcomes the greater heat losses. The "shoulder" months are when the COP values really pay off at 3, 4, or nearly 5 times the input Kw, so even allowing for high leccy prices over gas there is quite a good saving. Some have Mitsubishi, Toshiba or ( mine ) a Sanyo with the more efficient defrost system of a 4 way valve instead of elements to melt the winter ice. As you can tell I have had a mainly electrical career for well over fifty years so I have a relay for all zone digistats to be "ON" via the heat source in use. Many of the quotes that I had were horrendous ÂŁ14 K to over ÂŁ20 K for a system that is little better (if at all ) for under ÂŁ2K as a pensioner I am well happy for such an efficient system. Hope you have found these comments helpful. PS. No connection other than a satisfied pensioner.

Yes of course your nothing to do with dream
And you don't just copy and paste this about
 
Is this de ja vous, or do I keep reading the same post from efficiency man?
 
Sorry I wrote it for the other thread, then spotted this question, so though it more appropriate on here, just trying to be more helpful to op that wanted to know an answer to his questions. Mods cut out the makers names if that's a problem. For all you plumbers out there there`s money to be made going eco, just ask anyone with hefty rising gas bills. You will still need GSR as Hybrid will be the future, so do your MCS and have another feather in your cap(s) and increase your turnover of satisfied customers.
 
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@efficiencyman see my reply to your other (identical) post, you say "do your MCS" yet the "Dream" Heat Pumps supplied along with hot tubs and excersize bikes by "World of Bargains Ltd" aren't MCS approved are they?
 
Hi Worcester, I did not want to advertise ? I did not think that was kosher on here ! I am not biased in that way, only in saving costs. I mentioned MCS in the context of this trade site members to become trained, as there are so many peeps on here that put down alternative viable heating systems (other than Gas). As a general observation (if I dare do that on here) so many seem to knock renewables without much understanding, knowledge, facts, or consideration of how they could learn more, of what could help their careers. I am a pensioner & not MCS and as long as I can save a few ÂŁ`s on a product that works effectively it does not worry me if, as in this case it`s ÂŁ6000 cheaper. Excuse me if that`s too blunt ! but when cost comes shove, it`s a justified shove or go without.
 
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I think you'll find that a lot of people know that unless specified and installed correctly renewable technology will actually cost you more. We fit ASHP, ST, and GSHP but they aren't right for every household. Like every feather in a plumbers quill, it has it's place but is no magic bullet.

I'm glad your Dream unit is working out for you. I hope it serves you well in the distant future.
 
Thanks for your reply Howsie, all the best with your company & expertise in the renewable sector. Those of us that can uphold the positive aspects of going greener (it seems to me reading many of the posts on here ) are greatly needed, to encourage ways to be less reliant on fossil fuels. With a good deal head scratching to over come all tech hic-ups that will allow a system to be efficient, surely a goal for all of us. Hope you can help those pessimists on here to over come their negativity. I respect your integrity in these matters. Thanks
 
Not negative or pessimistic, just realistic. Why do we need to be less reliant on fossil fuels anyway. I do a bit of work with an electrician and he has fitted an ashp into his bungalow, topped up by his oil boiler. Now his system works as his bungalow is open plan and he has spent a small fortune upgrading his insulation. Now a lot of properties I work in wouldn't be able to upgrade the insulation to the house without major works.

Yep, you say, yours works, good for you, but more than one way to skin a cat.
 
Simon Go one step beyond in your thinking too ! At what cost to skin a cat -- it can work and on a tight budget. You ask why (about reliance on fossil fuels) the list is just about end less, cost, not renewable, produces too much CO2, not infinite, too much particulates, pollution, gases, toxins, costs in transporting it, political problems in causes, I could go on & on from the atom to outer space, You are lost with out vision, You are on a narrow plank overboard if you can`t see that, There is only hope for mankind if you have vision, Get realistic man ! I wish you all the best but that can only be if you open your eyes, learn something of benefit every day, and apply logical conclusions. I am nearly 68 and still having my horizons broadened
 
Each to there own, you have your 'dream' and I have my opinion and 'vision' of working in the real world. At my age there will be plenty of work with fossil fuels upto and beyond me retiring, after that I really couldn't give a monkeys. A handful of tree huggers in this country are only going to make a miniscule (probably less) difference to co2 production when you look at the likes of the 'emerging' economies. Who in an effort to play catch up are burning through everything and anything they can get their hands on. Now there's realism and vision.
 
Simon Go one step beyond in your thinking too ! At what cost to skin a cat -- it can work and on a tight budget. You ask why (about reliance on fossil fuels) the list is just about end less, cost, not renewable, produces too much CO2, not infinite, too much particulates, pollution, gases, toxins, costs in transporting it, political problems in causes, I could go on & on from the atom to outer space, You are lost with out vision, You are on a narrow plank overboard if you can`t see that, There is only hope for mankind if you have vision, Get realistic man ! I wish you all the best but that can only be if you open your eyes, learn something of benefit every day, and apply logical conclusions. I am nearly 68 and still having my horizons broadened
 
@efficiencyman - the full eco argument isn't that simple (and remember we ONLY do renewables) - because of the way we currently generate electricity you need an SPF (seasonally adjusted CoP) of at least 2.7 to break even with natural gas on the C02 side - a vast number (100% according to the Energy Saving Trust research) of ASHP systems installed prior to the latest MCS requirements don't achieve that. And with Gas prices scheduled to fall (see the futures market) over the next 5 years as shale gas comes on line, the economic argument is a difficult one to argue unless the buidlings are incredibly well insulated almost to passiv haus standards.
At the end of the day economics drives the renewables market whatever we might like to do to 'Save the planet' (by the way the planet WILL save itself, it's just that we might kill ourselves off first :) )

We believe 100% that there is a place and a market for renewables, I just don't get into the eco arguments!
 
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Thanks Worcester, Good food for thought and wise words at the end, yes arguments are rarely good for constructive thoughts or necessarily positive conclusions, Shall we live in dreams & hope ? Yes I would rather do that, than try to live with my head in the sand.
 
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Thanks Worcester, Good food for thought and wise words at the end, yes arguments are rarely good for constructive thoughts or necessarily positive conclusions, Shall we live in dreams & hope ? Yes I would rather do that, than try to live with my head in the sand.

Lol what power runs your heat pump I'd be thinking electricity how is it made! Is it not still a lot fossil fuel
Poison gas! What is in the gases in heat pump
How is your heat pump made is it made out of man made components look at the carbon footprint of making these are they environmentally friendly now!!!!!
 
You make fair comments, I have considered them before, life is often a compromise ! The refrigerant is R410A you probably have it in your fridge / freezer - are the alternatives much better ? I would like Solar PV, my younger brother is getting rich on it ! but for various reasons I can`t, besides the likes of you would raise the old the Chestnut about components, production, etc. I fitted Solar Thermal 24 years ago - has paid for itself 4 times over by now, long term it`s worth it, it`s all about the legacy you leave, not just for my kids, how about considering all future generations. Renewables have their place, research yes, inventions have brought hope ! Negativity and you loose out ! Sorry if that IS fact or argument !
 
You make fair comments, I have considered them before, life is often a compromise ! The refrigerant is R410A you probably have it in your fridge / freezer - are the alternatives much better ? I would like Solar PV, my younger brother is getting rich on it ! but for various reasons I can`t, besides the likes of you would raise the old the Chestnut about components, production, etc. I fitted Solar Thermal 24 years ago - has paid for itself 4 times over by now, long term it`s worth it, it`s all about the legacy you leave, not just for my kids, how about considering all future generations. Renewables have their place, research yes, inventions have brought hope ! Negativity and you loose out ! Sorry if that IS fact or argument !

I'm not the one saying we should use renewable energy
The cost of renewable energy on the carbon footprint makes it not very good for the environment I have friends that work in big industry in renewables and the only reason it's around big at the minute is government grants and subsidiaries otherwise it wouldn't be cost effective
You really should do research before trying to push it
 
You have made 5,155 posts, simon has made 8,454, I do not intend arguing to that extent, so many people will never face up to the fact that mankind cannot continue to RAPE this planet like there is no tomorrow. I accept that why can`t you ? I have done loads of research too. To carry on as you advocate this world would need to be over three planets, before our grandchildren are my age, that can NOT continue. I totally agree with Worcester and others that it is an uphill struggle trying to live more eco. It`s hard to over come the difficulties that are plenty but to run away from the challenge would be defeat, in all my 68 years of struggle I have managed to succeed by refusing to quit. Better still is the satisfaction of a system that works and I am well satisfied after a year of use with the savings that are currently good. Although I admit it had to be used hybrid for a few times last winter, but overall my heating demand has been met from AIR with cost savings. PS regards your point about grants & subsidies I do not like paying for the high price of imported fuel you demand from all over the world, that`s not cost effective and we are being RIP OFF because every one in the industry wants too big a slice of my cake, so carry on giving them your cake if you wish, as Simon wrote each to there own (misguided) opinion!
 
I will take that bell and swing it, but to some on here that would be an insult and against the rules !
 
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