Cowboy plumber & electrician put notch/holes everywhere in the joist

[appletree]

Hi,

You may have seen my post from 2-3 weeks ago about the troubles I was having with cowboy builders/electrician/plumber/gas engineer that I had the misfortune of hiring.

Today, I decided to lift up the floorboard to see how they ran the wiring and pipes around the joist and was horrified to find their "handy" work.

The joists in the attached photo span about 3.2m (you can see a wall to the right but that's just a partition wall and the joist runs under the bathroom behind the wall). The joist depth is about 18cm.

I lifted up the board to find that the electrician and the plumber "liberally" made notches and holes everywhere.

1. By pure luck, the notches are located between 0.07x and 0.25x of the joist span from one end (between 23cm and 80cm), however one notch is about 7cm deep on a 18cm joist! That's nearly cutting the depth of joist by 40%. The plumber angled the pipes down just so that he could avoid cutting an old pipe that was running along a joist.
2. The electrician drilled multiple holes. They are all located under 80cm from the end of the joist (0.25x joist span of 3.2m), so to start off with, they are at the wrong location.
3. To make the matters worse, some holes are directly under the notch that the plumber made
4. And multiple holes were made too close to each other
5. Not all holes are in the centre (depth-wise) of the joist. Some are too close to the top of the joist.

Luckily I have yet to pay £3,900 to the builder, who brought in the plumber and the electrician (they are all friends and family members).

What do you suggest I do to fix this? I can't trust these cowboys to come back to my home to do further damage. I am thinking, get a proper electrician, plumber and joiner to re-run the cables, re-laid the pipe and sister the joists to strengthen them again. (And only pay the cowboy builder what remains after the proper traders, if there is any left that is)

Thanks.

 

[Brambles]

Possibly worth getting a structural engineer to look at it (circa £300 to £500). He / she can assess the existing loadings and give an indication of the residual strength of the joists and any remedial works that may be required. Increased movement of the floor is normally the first limiting factor - creaks / bounce and cracking to ceiling finishes below.

Pay special attention to any joists that have been weakened that are supporting a bathtub at some point across their span.

Alternatively, as you are undertaking a major refurbishment ask Building Control for a viewpoint on their next visit.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Are you sure them notches have been cut recently as they look old to me darking of the wood etc

 

[Stigster]

Are you sure them notches have been cut recently as they look old to me darking of the wood etc

I agree, they look like they've re-used existing notches, not cut them recently or made correctly sized notches any deeper.

 

[snowhead]

I agree with both the above, they look like old notches cut for larger pipes.
At least one of the holes drilled under the notch may be new but none of them should be there.

 

[Last Plumber]

Another here for existing notches. Worth getting it looked at though.

 

[appletree]

You are right. The one that I uploaded the close up shot was an existing one. Sorry I was looking at this at 3am last night and I didn't see it clearly. I had another look at the notches and it looks like the deep notches were already there but my builders made them even wider.

In the attached photo, you can see that the left hand side of the notch is clearly an old one whereas the right side is new. Combined work of cowboys from 30 years ago (I believe that was about the time this house was last refurbished before I bought it 2 months ago) and today.

Knowing that the deep notches have been there for 30 years and the floors didn't fall through is in some ways a bit assuring but I am going to have to get it looked at.

Probably will put a metal plate on the side to strengthen the joists.

 

[Scott_D]

Making an existing notch the width/depth you need is often better than cutting a new one.
Happens all the time.

 

[Gasmk1]

do you know its an old unused pipe looks like steel so could be conduit may contain electical wire or could be gas.

 

[appletree]

do you know its an old unused pipe looks like steel so could be conduit may contain electical wire or could be gas.

Hi. I have completely rewired the electrics in the house so even if there is old electricity cables it won’t matter. Gas pipe was re laid too (by the plumber who is NOT a registered gas engineer) so that’s not a gas pipe.

By the way, I called Gas Safe as I was worried about what these cowboys have done and the inspector came around on Monday. He made some recommendations to fix a few things. I will update on this saga on a separate thread

 

[Ric2013]

If you saw my own house, you'd think I am a cowboy.

I don't make notches and holes in such a cavalier manner, but I have had to work around what is there and to reuse as much of the legacy notching as I can which doesn't make for the prettiest work, but it has meant I've never had to entirely replumb and rewire my house in one go from scratch.

Working around that disused pipe probably made sense. I have worked in a property before where there was a disused gas pipe which, when we started to check it was decommissioned in order to go about taking it out, it turned out it was still live and on the gas grid. Luckily I was working with a Registered Gas Installer who knew the regs well enough to point out to the national grid gas that the pipe had not been terminated correctly and that it 'seemed to be leaking' and in poor state and managed to persude them to actually decommission it properly so we could remove it. In the absense of clear visible evidence that the pipe was a dud dead, I would have treated it as live too, particularly if you hadn't been there. I'm sure you would have backed me up and paid the tab had it proved to be a live gas pipe, but some people would then say I was lacking in a duty of care to assume you were correct to say it wasn't in use: sometimes you just can't win.

 

[SimonG]

Do people not vet trades before they work in their house?

There are a number of trades round my way that I wouldn't let them change a light bulb.

In honesty I have very little sympathy with people who hire rogue trades, people need to do their homework.

 

[Murdoch]

OP ... in your opening post you talk about cowboy plumbers , electricians, gas engineer, yet in post 10 you say you have retired the house.

I’m confused

As for the notches, I too agree they mostly look old , and until 1985 joist sizes didn’t have any standards to comply with ....

 

[Gasmk1]

OP . in your opening post you talk about cowboy plumbers , electricians, gas engineer, yet in post 10 you say you have retired the house.

I’m confused

As for the notches, I too agree they mostly look old , and until 1985 joist sizes didn’t have any standards to comply with ..

i was going to say this also, he rewired the house himself

 

[centralheatking]

Hi,

You may have seen my post from 2-3 weeks ago about the troubles I was having with cowboy builders/electrician/plumber/gas engineer that I had the misfortune of hiring.

Today, I decided to lift up the floorboard to see how they ran the wiring and pipes around the joist and was horrified to find their "handy" work.

The joists in the attached photo span about 3.2m (you can see a wall to the right but that's just a partition wall and the joist runs under the bathroom behind the wall). The joist depth is about 18cm.

I lifted up the board to find that the electrician and the plumber "liberally" made notches and holes everywhere.

1. By pure luck, the notches are located between 0.07x and 0.25x of the joist span from one end (between 23cm and 80cm), however one notch is about 7cm deep on a 18cm joist! That's nearly cutting the depth of joist by 40%. The plumber angled the pipes down just so that he could avoid cutting an old pipe that was running along a joist.
2. The electrician drilled multiple holes. They are all located under 80cm from the end of the joist (0.25x joist span of 3.2m), so to start off with, they are at the wrong location.
3. To make the matters worse, some holes are directly under the notch that the plumber made
4. And multiple holes were made too close to each other
5. Not all holes are in the centre (depth-wise) of the joist. Some are too close to the top of the joist.

Luckily I have yet to pay £3,900 to the builder, who brought in the plumber and the electrician (they are all friends and family members).

What do you suggest I do to fix this? I can't trust these cowboys to come back to my home to do further damage. I am thinking, get a proper electrician, plumber and joiner to re-run the cables, re-laid the pipe and sister the joists to strengthen them again. (And only pay the cowboy builder what remains after the proper traders, if there is any left that is)

Thanks.

They look like old notches and their span seems very short wall to wall...whats the layout underneath. centralheatking

 

[Best]

Sometimes you can bend a pipe below an immovable obstacle if the air in pipe isn’t an issue - like with mains pressure water pipes or if consideration was given to air removal on either side of the drop - like a heating pipe with level tees offs to rads either side.
The pipe can not only be dropped down but also a 90 degrees bend used if obstacle was fairly close to joists .
I always now cut notches for individual pipes. Makes it easier to pipe to and solder if pipes have lots of space between them and leaves plenty of joist to screw narrow floors to.
I have however had to use ridiculously large existing notches at times and worry that in a few years if someone lifts the flooring I might get the blame for damaged joists

 

[Ric2013]

i was going to say this also, he rewired the house himself

He may have had it tested and put it through building control. That said, it confused me too as if he wired it, who is the sparky who drilled the holes?