Contract with my Water Company or the shared supply neighbour.

[treefan]

Hi there

My property had always sharing the same water supply as the adjacent school as it was the old caretakers house. I have owned it for 10 years and was told by the outgoing caretaker this was always the case. So I didnt pay any water bills until the scholl upgraded their supply. We are now seperate with myself paying £4k to put my own supply in.
Just prior to seperation I raised this with Thames Water during a water bill amnesty and so am OK with them from a payment point of view.
However the school is now asking for £5000 from me. This is despite the fact they were unmetered for most of this period (maybe 8 of the 10 years) and so did not incur additional charges for my supply.

My questions are:

1. does the school have a good case if this goes to court?
I thought my water supply is between myself and Thames Water and so nothing to do with the school.

2. I intend to put the onus on the school to give me an accurate
estimate of what I consumed during that period. As this was on a mostly unmetered basis I dont see how they can do this.

Wondering if anyone has advice.

thanks

 

[aqualogic7]

did you buy the house from the school, if so was there any mention of the water supply, thames would of been paid by the school for your water supply as they had been paying rates which included your house, the school should of then charged you, not sure if they can retro charge you if they dont have a contract to supply you with water, hope this help a little

 

[snowhead]

This is despite the fact they were unmetered for most of this period (maybe 8 of the 10 years) and so did not incur additional charges for my supply.

The supply to the caretakers house would have been included within the amount the school were paying based on the old rateable value of the house.

The school may now be paying more in charges due to the meter than before and are trying to recover older costs incurred to them by you.

My questions are:

1. does the school have a good case if this goes to court?
I thought my water supply is between myself and Thames Water and so nothing to do with the school.

2. I intend to put the onus on the school to give me an accurate
estimate of what I consumed during that period. As this was on a mostly unmetered basis I dont see how they can do this.

Wondering if anyone has advice.

thanks

You need to know exactly how they arrived at that figure.
T-Water would be the best to estimate it.

The school can't charge you an estimate based on metered water, it wasn't metered.
The best they can do is the charge a similar rateable value house would have paid during that time.

However unless they have an agreement from you to pay when you took ownership I doubt they've got a legal leg to stand on.

 

[Ray Stafford]

It does sound like you have had something for nothing for several years, so whatever the legal situation is, I think you have a moral obligation to offer the school something.

I would suggest writing to them with a low-ball offer. If you can't afford to settle straightaway, make the offer so much per month for a fixed period. Head the letter "WITHOUT PREJUDICE" - and make it clear in the text of the letter that you are not admitting liability, just trying to come to a reasonable settlement.

I don't suppose that anyone in the school will have much appetite for expensive litigation, and there is a fair chance that they will accept quite a low offer.

Ray

 

[Joncpi]

I should also be very careful about paying this water bill. Is it just for the water supply or are they including any sewerage charges? If not and you pay for the supply of water for the last 10 years, they will then probably want re-imbursement for the sewerage aswell, this is often double the cost of water supply. I think I would go to Thames Water and ask them for impartial advice from the inspectors dept. Often your local water board can be very helpful. They have no axe to grind as they have been getting all the money they previously asked for so are not "out of pocket" so to speak. You could check your actual usage at present either by getting a meter fitted by Thames Water or by putting in one yourself inside the house. If there is only 1 or 2 people living in the house it is often cheaper on a meter than on the rateable value. Also Thames Water will know the average cost for a house like yours which could be used to negotiate with. Lastly if you have your deeds or any solicitors letters from when you bought the house, is there any mention in there?

 

[treefan]

Hi, thanks a lot for your valuable replies.

I bought the house from the caretaker who did not pay for the water and verbally mentioned that was always the arrangment with the school. I cannot find any documrnatation from the house sale to be (it was 12 years ago).


Ive also had a reply from Ofwat which includes the passage:

[FONT=&quot]the situation you describe when you once shared a supply with the school is deemed a ‘Water Resale’ situation whereby you were not a direct customer of Thames Water but a customer of the ‘Reseller’.[/FONT]
The ‘Reseller’ in this situation was the School. However, when you contacted Thames and paid for your own water supply, the Water Resale situation no longer existed. See enclosed information note for further overview of Water Resale.

It is reasonable to suggest that if you have received the enjoyment of a service for which you have made no payment, then the School may be legally entitled to recover charges from you.

However, having reviewed the guidance document above: if the reseller fails to give you the information of how the £5k charge have been calculated within 4 weeks of an official request, you can pay a reduced charge equivalent to half Thames’ Water’s water and/or sewerage bill.

This still looks a like I could be hit for all or half of what they are demanding; I cannot not really afford to be liable for such charges especailly as I spent over £4k putting in my own supply!

thanks for your comments.

 

[Joncpi]

I think I would ask Thames Water for written confirmation that the school did not pay any extra for the water to the "caretakers" house. All their charges came from the Rateable Value of the school site, which presumably has not changed since the caretakers house was sold to you. I think this can be looked up on your local District Council's web site under the business rates section. In other words if the school was not paying any extra for the water supplied to you, then it is unfair to now charge you for your use. However since the meter had been installed they would actually have been paying for your use so I think they may have a case for claiming back that cost. But it is only about two years worth. Either use your Rateable Value to find out what Thames Water would have charged you for two years and divide by two as they say you can, and tell the school this is what you will pay them, and how you arrived at the figure. Our alternatively, and more accurately, fit a secondary meter, if you are not on a metered supply already, then use this to calculate your useage for two years. Divide this by two and tell the school this is what you will give them.

 

[treefan]

Hi thanks for that advice; Im due to see the "Business Owner" today and will offer to pay whatever extra they had to pay when they became metered.
My only question is your advice is to "Divide this by two" ; if I get a metered reading of my usage for one year shouldnt I times by 2 to give them 2 years worth of usage?
thanks

I think I would ask Thames Water for written confirmation that the school did not pay any extra for the water to the "caretakers" house. All their charges came from the Rateable Value of the school site, which presumably has not changed since the caretakers house was sold to you. I think this can be looked up on your local District Council's web site under the business rates section. In other words if the school was not paying any extra for the water supplied to you, then it is unfair to now charge you for your use. However since the meter had been installed they would actually have been paying for your use so I think they may have a case for claiming back that cost. But it is only about two years worth. Either use your Rateable Value to find out what Thames Water would have charged you for two years and divide by two as they say you can, and tell the school this is what you will pay them, and how you arrived at the figure. Our alternatively, and more accurately, fit a secondary meter, if you are not on a metered supply already, then use this to calculate your useage for two years. Divide this by two and tell the school this is what you will give them.

 

[Joncpi]

Hi, I was only saying divide by two, as in the reply from Ofwat they say "you can pay a reduced charge equivalent to half Thames' Water's waterand/or sewerage bill." But I guess they maybe thinking of two houses where the charges would possibly be roughly equal not a school and a house where obviously the school would have a much greater consumption. Anyway I would quote the reply from Ofwat when you arrive at the amount you should re-imburse the school, as without clarification, it could be read that your part of the bill (because a lot of time has passed) should be reduced by half . There has to be a starting point when negotiating a compromise. You never know your luck!

 

[treefan]

thanks for the advice,
I actually met the School business Manager to discuss this.
He maintains there has been a water meter installed for at least 3 years.
So Ive asked him to confirm the exact date the school got their meters in and will have to take it from there

 

[Joncpi]

So really they can only charge you for three years or so of water + sewerage, and I would keep quiet about any sewerage charges at the moment. As I said before these are normally much more than the water supply charges.
Are you yourself on a meter now?

 

[stevetheplumber]

id try and bluff it out as a reseller the school has failed to bill you at the appropriate time

 

[treefan]

Hi
Just an update on this.
So the school have told me they were on a meter since 1998!
I didnt know meters were installed that far back.
So for the 12 years that I would have owned the property they are looking for £5k.

Im in a quandry...I have already paid over £4k to seperate the supply and am being hit with this..

any advice as ever would appreciated...

 

[Joncpi]

I think I would go and talk to an inspector at Thames Water for advice. They are normally very good and can be impartial. They have been paid all they requested so they have no axe to grind. The problem is between you and the school. They would be able to tell you what your bill would have been, each year, if it was based on the Rateable Value of your house for the last 12 years. Also as you now have a meter you can work out how much you use and average it over the 12 years. Thames Water will be able to tell you how much the cost of the water per cubic meter and the standing charge, was for the last 12 years if you had been on your own meter. Obviously go for the lower cost when and if you have to negotiate with the school. Also they will advise you on whether the school actually has a case. For instance they may only be legally allowed to ask you for say 3 or 5 years back costs. Thames Water will know all these answers, go to them.

 

[plum ber]

as Joncpi has said I think they can only go back a few years....I have a friend who own's a newish 9 year old house and has Never ever had a water bill.....she looked into it and decided to keep schtum and save the money in case they ever got caught up with, don't know if this one is sorted nowadays but not my bad...

 

[treefan]

Hi
Just an update on this.
I asked thames water to give me a breakdown on the amount I would have been charged if the bills had been in my name. This equates to approx £2800. (not £5000 that the school wanted).

I offered half this amount as I had not been sent any breakdown of charges owed after requesting this. By Law I am obliged to pay 50% of charges outstanding (http://www.ofwat.gov.uk/consumerissues/prs_lft_guidetowresale.pdf).

The School has refused this offer and has demandeded the £2800. I am seriously tempted to let them sue me now!

what does anyone think?

thanks !!

 

[tamz]

You gotta pay what you gotta pay.Its a bad situation you are in but if TW have come back with a figure of 2.8k then you haven't a lot to negotiate on.

 

[TonyC]

A few years a go i was informed that i should receive a yearly payment for network power lines that run overhead of my property. It was agreed and although i had owned the property for 20 years i could only claim back 6 years of payment being the legal statutory obligation. I suggest you divide Thames Waters figure by the number of years they used to calculate £2800 and then multiply by 6 (years). And perhaps apply a reduction for having a shared main and being understanding of the situation.

 

[lame plumber]

the school must give you a breakdown of how they arrived at their charges. If they didnt charge when they were on ratable value, what was your ratable value costs incurred had you paid, then look at metered charges and what they would have cost. If you have the information fm water co follow what they say and take it fm there. youve got to pay something, but what, the school has to be reasonable and give a full breakdown of calcs otherwise make your offer and wait. If the school threatens to sue, it wont cost you anything until you go to court, even then it can only be small claims and solicitors dont appear at these hearings, if you make a reasonable offer, judges may look in your favour against a school thats failed to do things correctly anyhow. whatever, keep talking and make an offer, and sit and wait, dont be too quick to pay, the school cant afford thousands in solicitors fees against a small gain can they!

 

[treefan]

Another update on this guys!:

The school has served a summons on me for £2760. I had offered half this amount.

To recap, they plucked out of the air an initial demand for £5000.

I asked for a breakdown of this charge; they didnt reply within 4 week period. So I understand, I am obliged to only pay 50% of what I owe.

So i asked then asked Thames Water for a breakdown of what I should have paid which came to £2760 (the equivalent of a simialr property in my area for that period). So I offered 50% of this.

The school refused hence the summons.

I feel I should dispute this as:

1. there was never any contract between myself and the school to supply water (ie. the previous owner didnt pay either).
2. under water resale laws, if the reseller fails to give you the information of how the £5k charge have been calculated within 4 weeks of an official request, you can pay a reduced charge equivalent to half Thames’ Water’s water and/or sewerage bill.
3. I have already paid over £3k to seperate the water supply with the school paying nothing.

any views on whether I have a strong case or should I just pay and forget about it!!!