Can motorised valves go under floorboards (legally)?

[Ric2013]

Hi guys and gals,

I'm looking to try to change from a Y-plan to an S-plan-plus this year to have a heated bathroom. While the house isn't that large, a mixture of south-facing brick and north-facing (and Jerry-built) timber frame construction means no single thermostat will cut the muster unless we are prepared to have a large amount of the house heated to wastefully high temperatures.

Unfortunately the only place I could split the pipework to the 2 zones easily is under the floorboards at the top of the landing. These boards are screwed down and can be lifted in a few minutes. It could almost be considered an access panel, although I realise it isn't ideal. The alternative involves notching noggins under a built-in cupboard and moving furniture around and, now there isn't a spare room to move things into, realistically it means it won't be done this year at all.

Is there any real reason I can't put a couple of motorised valves in the floor void? Nothing in the MIs I have to hand to say I can't, provided I keep within the ambient temperatures and don't install the wrong way up, but I do wonder if the current electrical regulations have anything to say?

Any thoughts? I'm not looking at selling for many years, but would obviously put an explanatory label visibly near the pump just in case I get hit by a big red Brexit bus.

 

[Last Plumber]

No reason why not as far as I know.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Aslong as there easy to get at and follow manufacturer instructions as to rotation then go ahead

Seen many a pump and 3 port under the floor before now

 

[Chuck]

I think you're in 'legal but not a good idea' territory.

IMO you should install on the assumption zone valves will need attention from time to time, say every five years. If you're planning to put carpet, etc. down on the landing then it's going to have to come up for access every so often.

If space is the problem I've two suggestions. (a) Put the furniture into short term storage. IIRC, you have a van but if it's not available most storage companies will collect/deliver for you. (b) Move the stuff in into other rooms/areas and book yourselves into the local Premiere Inn (or similar) for a couple of nights. If you've got some flexibility about timing this can be used to cut the cost significantly.

 

[snowhead]

The only issue electrically would be that any connections that are not accessible must be maintenance free and in a suitable fixed enclosure, Wago or similar.
Not screw type connectors floating in the air wrapped in pvc tape.

 

[SimonG]

As long as accessible for future maintenance I dont see a problem.

Many a new build its play hunt the two port.

 

[Ric2013]

Thanks to all for the ideas.

As far as electrical connections are concerned, the existing wiring is (not-maintenance-free) junction boxes thrown under the floor (not my work, incidentally) and I'd like to bring them above the floor into a proper wiring centre, so this may be the opportunity to make it all much safer and more inspectionable.

The floorboards are linseed oiled pine and have not been carpeted since they were fitted 15 years ago, and will not be carpeted over. (The only room in my house now with fitted carpet is the loft). They were screwed down rather than nailed when fitted to allow for easy for access, and I seem to take them up every couple of years for one thing or for another. It has occurred to me since posting that I only need to put one valve under the floor, so the other two will be readily accessible. In the longer term, it might just make sense to have a combi boiler in this house, and at which point the whole system can be redesigned.

Thanks for mentioning the van, Chuck. Having sat on the drive for two years unused, it needed the battery charging, the brakes cleaning and bleeding, the suspension rubber thingies replacing, and with that it passed the MOT this year (and then I changed various fluids). Buying it, secondhand, eight years ago seems to have been one of my more fortunate decisions so far!

 

[Deleted member 120897]

Would it be feasible to install Evohome or Wiser with smart trv’s, this creating independent zones?

 

[king of pipes]

As above would be a simpler task Ric , but I have put them under floors before when there's no other option, but always accessable EPH valves have plug in powerheads making it easier to replace when there's a issue and their heating packs are quite reasonably priced. Kop

 

[Ric2013]

Wouldn't really be simpler to use a proprietary system as I've done far more complicated wiring in the past and it doesn't bother me.

The ground floor (basically all one room) pipes and the first floor pipes split off under the top of the stairs. Plus I've worked out I can reuse nearly everything already installed so all I'd actually need to buy is one new 2PV and one new thermostat. I don't mind spending money, but cannot see the benefit in this case. The current programmer is basic but tends to be manually overridden most of the time anyway.

A lot of powerheads are only held in by two screws, but will look at EPH if space is especially tight - thanks!

You mentioned Evohome, Undertrained. I'm fed up with Honeywell and would no longer bother with them. Following a wireless room stat that failed in four years, incomplete operation instructions that do not fully cover the features of the product, and two incidents in which Honeywell technical support revealed to me that they don't really understand how their products work (I'll PM you if you want details), I'd quite happy with manual controls.

 

[Deleted member 120897]

Thanks Ric, but I understand what you’re saying. I don‘t rate Honeywell much these days either, just another forum people still promote evohome, haven’t used it myself. Thanks.

 

[Ric2013]

Going off-topic, I think Evohome is very clever. And if Honeywell would publish a manual that comprehensively explains all the features and not rely on FAQs and questions as customers discover what the other features are, I'd be more interested in it. I did, after all, install a 5 zone heating system based on thermostats (both programmable and analogue types and 2PVs) in a three bedroom house in around 2010 (even though, despite explaining it to everyone, I was the only person living in the house to understand it, an outcome that doesn't bode well for anything more complex). What I also wonder is whether all this fancy technology actually works. I'm sure some people will happily use it and will save energy in the process, but I'm equally convinced that those were the people who probably used most energy in the first place.

Some of the rubbish I hear about turning the heating on with a mobile phone from a distance is all well and good and will doubtless save energy compared with a timer that cannot understand you may be home later than expected, but it doesn't seem to marry well with older houses that are likely to suffer from condensation if heating is used intermittently, nor with the current convention of screeded UFH systems that are not easily turn-off-and-onable.

The whole concept of 'comfort temperatures' is old-hat and we're only still using it because it is simpler than what is actually being discussed at graduate level and beyond and the manufacturers rarely condescend to explain things to us as if we are intelligent adults. We're still measuring air temperatures and not mean radiant temperatures (globe thermostats for central heating are rare as hens' teeth), and then we're trying to keep a building at a set temperature for the whole winter regardless of the fact that if the occupants are exposed to cold temperatures on a daily basis (such as walking or cycling to the shops/gym/office) they will tend to perceive thermal comfort at temperatures lower than would normally be expected.

I'm actually of the opinion that (Part L aside), if there is someone in the house when it is being heated, it would actually make sense to get rid of the room thermostat altogether and replace it with a pneumatic time switch. I'd certainly like to trial it as an experiment and see if it saves energy or not. That way, if the occupants felt cold, they would press the button and have the heating come on for, say 15 minutes, and if they didn't feel cold, they would let it go off for a while. Much like a fire or stove: if you are warm enough you don't keep loading up more firewood! In reality, if people turned their heating on at 14 degrees and then turned up their thermostats by a single degree until they felt warm, this would work equally well, but sadly the normal practice is to set the thermostat at a much higher temperature that always feels warm enough.

I just notice that in the current climate, behaviour change is the elephant in the room that is being ignored, and deliberately. Of course there are massive wastes of energy at societal level that we cannot directly affect as individuals, but there is also a lot we can do as individuals. While if we each did a little, together we would achieve... a little, if everyone did a LOT, then matters would be quite different. I say that as someone who just about lives a 'one planet' lifestyle while still living in a house in a reasonably conventional manner and without even being a strict vegetarian. Sadly, climate change is being used as a political football with talks on sustainability often drifting to 'sustainable development' then 'sustainable growth' and finally 'sustained growth' (which isn't sustainable at all).

So while I am under no illusions about the efficiency of my zombie boiler or my "semi-insulated" house (there are only actually two houses in my post-code that are a whole EPC grade above mine however), I am also aware that this month the house (with two occupants who aren't a couple) has used around 20kWh of gas a week and 20kWh of electricity a week. I was using the immersion heater to save running the boiler in DHW-only mode, so that 20kWh of gas was for cooking and boiling the kettle. So far the heating has remained off. Because CO2 is an abstract concept, I'll talk about money, which is more tangible. Typically, the house uses 4000kWh gas per year, so that's £350 plus standing charges on my current tariff. So a new boiler stands to save... how much? But if everyone just cut their consumption, GDP would fall and we'd be in a serious economic recession, so people have to keep buying things and throwing things away to keep the economy ticking over. Which is why, I suppose, people who already use a lot of gas and would save a lot by installing a new boiler need to buy things like Evohome.

 

[SimonG]

Going off-topic, I think Evohome is very clever. And if Honeywell would publish a manual that comprehensively explains all the features and not rely on FAQs and questions as customers discover what the other features are, I'd be more interested in it. I did, after all, install a 5 zone heating system based on thermostats (both programmable and analogue types and 2PVs) in a three bedroom house in around 2010 (even though, despite explaining it to everyone, I was the only person living in the house to understand it, an outcome that doesn't bode well for anything more complex). What I also wonder is whether all this fancy technology actually works. I'm sure some people will happily use it and will save energy in the process, but I'm equally convinced that those were the people who probably used most energy in the first place.

Some of the rubbish I hear about turning the heating on with a mobile phone from a distance is all well and good and will doubtless save energy compared with a timer that cannot understand you may be home later than expected, but it doesn't seem to marry well with older houses that are likely to suffer from condensation if heating is used intermittently, nor with the current convention of screeded UFH systems that are not easily turn-off-and-onable.

The whole concept of 'comfort temperatures' is old-hat and we're only still using it because it is simpler than what is actually being discussed at graduate level and beyond and the manufacturers rarely condescend to explain things to us as if we are intelligent adults. We're still measuring air temperatures and not mean radiant temperatures (globe thermostats for central heating are rare as hens' teeth), and then we're trying to keep a building at a set temperature for the whole winter regardless of the fact that if the occupants are exposed to cold temperatures on a daily basis (such as walking or cycling to the shops/gym/office) they will tend to perceive thermal comfort at temperatures lower than would normally be expected.

I'm actually of the opinion that (Part L aside), if there is someone in the house when it is being heated, it would actually make sense to get rid of the room thermostat altogether and replace it with a pneumatic time switch. I'd certainly like to trial it as an experiment and see if it saves energy or not. That way, if the occupants felt cold, they would press the button and have the heating come on for, say 15 minutes, and if they didn't feel cold, they would let it go off for a while. Much like a fire or stove: if you are warm enough you don't keep loading up more firewood! In reality, if people turned their heating on at 14 degrees and then turned up their thermostats by a single degree until they felt warm, this would work equally well, but sadly the normal practice is to set the thermostat at a much higher temperature that always feels warm enough.

I just notice that in the current climate, behaviour change is the elephant in the room that is being ignored, and deliberately. Of course there are massive wastes of energy at societal level that we cannot directly affect as individuals, but there is also a lot we can do as individuals. While if we each did a little, together we would achieve... a little, if everyone did a LOT, then matters would be quite different. I say that as someone who just about lives a 'one planet' lifestyle while still living in a house in a reasonably conventional manner and without even being a strict vegetarian. Sadly, climate change is being used as a political football with talks on sustainability often drifting to 'sustainable development' then 'sustainable growth' and finally 'sustained growth' (which isn't sustainable at all).

So while I am under no illusions about the efficiency of my zombie boiler or my "semi-insulated" house (there are only actually two houses in my post-code that are a whole EPC grade above mine however), I am also aware that this month the house (with two occupants who aren't a couple) has used around 20kWh of gas a week and 20kWh of electricity a week. I was using the immersion heater to save running the boiler in DHW-only mode, so that 20kWh of gas was for cooking and boiling the kettle. So far the heating has remained off. Because CO2 is an abstract concept, I'll talk about money, which is more tangible. Typically, the house uses 4000kWh gas per year, so that's £350 plus standing charges on my current tariff. So a new boiler stands to save... how much? But if everyone just cut their consumption, GDP would fall and we'd be in a serious economic recession, so people have to keep buying things and throwing things away to keep the economy ticking over. Which is why, I suppose, people who already use a lot of gas and would save a lot by installing a new boiler need to buy things like Evohome.

Your first paragraph rings true. I tried to upgrade our heating controls but ended up with being the only one to understand it and the heating running more than it needed.