Best high flow water softener?

[ParagM]

Hi All, posting for the first time so hope this question is in the right place.
Which water softener would you recommend for use with a megaflow system where you want to maintain high flow rates in all areas including the ensuite bathroom in the loft?

 

[Brambles]

Try Softener Geeks - they do a range of compact, high flow rate units.

In my experience, the softener is rarely a limiting factor in an Un-vented system - but do make sure that you use high quality 22mm flexible connectors.

 

[ParagM]

Try Softener Geeks - they do a range of compact, high flow rate units.

In my experience, the softener is rarely a limiting factor in an Un-vented system - but do make sure that you use high quality 22mm flexible connectors.

Thanks Brambles, looked them up and they do seem a good bet.
You mention using high quality 22mm flexible connectors. Is the 22mm installation kit they supply with the machine good enough or should I get separate connectors?

 

[Brambles]

The softener’s they sell have proven to be robust (we have installed around 60) never had a failure. Only ever purchased one connection kit from them - it went straight into the bin!

We use our own sourced 22mm flexible connectors and hard pipe the drain ( not the overflow ) in solvent connected condensate pipe through a McAlpine one way valve.

Also ask for the full instructions to program the unit (direct to them by email). The supplied program instructions only cover the basic settings.

 

[king of pipes]

One of the best I have come across is Kinetico quite expensive but one of the top brands and will give you all the softened water you require.

The mains water supply into your home needs both adequate pressure and flow the higher the water has to rise will cause a drop off in pressure so please ensure that this is checked before installing anything. Kop

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Harvey is also another good high flow one

 

[ParagM]

The softener’s they sell have proven to be robust (we have installed around 60) never had a failure. Only ever purchased one connection kit from them - it went straight into the bin!

We use our own sourced 22mm flexible connectors and hard pipe the drain ( not the overflow ) in solvent connected condensate pipe through a McAlpine one way valve.

Also ask for the full instructions to program the unit (direct to them by email). The supplied program instructions only cover the basic settings.

Thanks for the details and further info Brambles. Much appreciated.
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One of the best I have come across is Kinetico quite expensive but one of the top brands and will give you all the softened water you require.

The mains water supply into your home needs both adequate pressure and flow the higher the water has to rise will cause a drop off in pressure so please ensure that this is checked before installing anything. Kop

Thanks Kop. I checked the water flow through the mains pipe and on the ground floor the pressure is just shy of 2 bar and the flow rate is 23 litres/min. There shouldn't be more than two showers running at one time but one of these is in the loft. What do you think?

 

[Chalked]

Another vote for Harvey’s

 

[ParagM]

Harvey is also another good high flow one

Thanks Shaun. I've certainly heard of Harvey. Are Harvey and Kinetico similar to each other?
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Another vote for Harvey’s

Thanks Chalked, noted.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Kinetico

Sorry don’t know never fitted one just stick to one I know don’t need that many as mostly soft in my area so didn’t do much digging just went off recommendations etc

 

[king of pipes]

Yes Harvey are similar I suppose in the sense they use block salt rather than tablets and are power free using the flow of water to power the unit , your water pressure is a bit on the low side 3 bar + is the ideal pressure the loft shower with be less powerful than on the lower floor I would check with the softner manufacturer before committing on their installation requirements. Regards kop

 

[ParagM]

Yes Harvey are similar I suppose in the sense they use block salt rather than tablets and are power free using the flow of water to power the unit , your water pressure is a bit on the low side 3 bar + is the ideal pressure the loft shower with be less powerful than on the lower floor I would check with the softner manufacturer before committing on their installation requirements. Regards kop

Thanks Kop. Do you think adding a pump to increase pressure in the whole system or one to just increase pressure in the loft shower be a good idea? Are there any drawbacks to doing this?

 

[Brambles]

Parag,

With an unvented system, the most effective solution I generally use is a pumped accumulator. Configured to deliver a dynamic pressure of 4bar at 22litres per minute. You may get away with a 200 litre store, but I would plan for 400 litres.

Soften the water after the accumulator - there are good reasons for this - but feed the kitchen and any garden cold taps ahead of the softener.

Set up also works well with large Combi’s that have been fitted in properties with multiple bathrooms

 

[king of pipes]

Some good advice from Brambles above have a look at Stuart Turner iboost system also . Kop

 

[ParagM]

Many thanks for the advice so far guys. I may be limited by the space I have available in adding accumulator tanks and so on but I will definitely discuss this with my builder and his plumber and see what can be done.

 

[Jim Goodenough]

Parag,

With an unvented system, the most effective solution I generally use is a pumped accumulator. Configured to deliver a dynamic pressure of 4bar at 22litres per minute. You may get away with a 200 litre store, but I would plan for 400 litres.

Soften the water after the accumulator - there are good reasons for this - but feed the kitchen and any garden cold taps ahead of the softener.

Hi Brambles, a couple of questions 1. which pumped accumulator's do you install? 2. Why do you say "Soften the water after the accumulator - there are good reasons for this"? just interested and wanting to improve myself.

 

[Brambles]

Hi,

We now make our own - configured to a 400 litre capacity with flow rate of 50 litres per minute @ 5 bar. The configuration is designed to give a 40kw combi it’s maximum flow rate. The pressure also ensures that on an unvented system, that too can operate at full capacity.

Before this we used Stuart Turner systems, but they were not man enough ( in our experience) to deal with three storey properties in North London - a 200 litre tank was not replenishing fast enough. None of the proprietary systems that we have seen are effectively insulated - in our experience insulation or trace heating ( for severe frost protection) is a very important requirement.

The market we are in is for people looking for hotel quality showers in a domestic environment - that is not as easy to achieve as it sounds.

With respect to ion exchanged softened water, pumps and pump seals in the accumulator have a much shorter life with the higher salt content. However, softening the water before the accumulator gives better performance ( we loose 0.75 bar across the softener), hence the need for 5 bar at the accumulator output to soften afterwards.

By softening afterwards, it also allows the kitchen tap ( drinking water) to be unsoftened, but balanced (Pressurised) with the hot water softened supply.

With respect to pump seal life, bear in mind that with an accumulator, if the pump fails the flow rate is lower than that from directly off the mains - so reliability and availability is key. We have looked at duty and standby pump arrangements, but that is not a cheap or cost effective option.

Finally, they are not a cheap solution, but once people have them, they are sold for life. We have had a lot of repeat orders for systems when people move house!

Hope this answers your questions

 

[Jim Goodenough]

Thanks Brambles,
for your comprehensive reply. Can you tell me more about "making your own" or is that exclusive?

The market we are in is for people looking for hotel quality showers in a domestic environment

Also very interested in this as I'm in the same market, although most houses are 2 not 3 stories. Appreciate your comments and experience.
Cheers Jim
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Brambles,

I also meant ask are you using 28 or 35mm from your accumulator plus pump when installing a softener, I'm just thinking the largest capacity softener (that I know of) is the Harvey Aquamax 1" and therefore there's little benefit in using 35mm.

Look forward to your comments and any others.

Cheers Jim
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Brambles,

I also meant ask are you using 28 or 35mm from your accumulator plus pump when installing a softener, I'm just thinking the largest capacity softener (that I know of) is the Harvey Aquamax 1" and therefore there's little benefit in using 35mm.

Look forward to your comments and any others.

Cheers Jim

 

[Brambles]

Jim

They all vary, but the typical configuration is a 400 litre polyethylene tank, mounted anove the pump skid. Single speed multistage centrifugal with an end suction work well. If the Customer can afford it a long coupled axial pump gives quieter more reliable service.

The whole package sits within a very well insulated box (for noise and frost protection)

The tank is generally fed through a ball valve, but we have experimented with solenoid valves. You need a low level limit switch and an “expansion vessel” to mitigate potential water hammer. We are developing a control system with slow acting valves to make the transition from opening the tap to full flow smooth and silent (well nearly). The system can consistently deliver 25 litres / second @ 4.5bar dynamic at 40 feet.

For the softener, we set it at maximum hardness, then use an external blending valve to bring the total hardness back up to an acceptable level. Obviously you cannot(cost effectively) put the full output of the accumulator through a single vessel domestic sized water softener. Electronically controlled metered softeners seem to work better with pumped systems than those operated by water flow. Not sure why!!

Does that cover all your points?

We also have a skid system that takes in water and gas, outputting, CH flow, CH return, DHW soft under pressure (as stated above) with balanced soft cold and unsoftened cold. It is harder to achieve that you would think, but there is a market for that type of “instant fix” for buildings undergoing basement and loft conversions. The developer we are working with, calls it a “Power Shower Cassette”.