Air source heat pumps in the news again

[Jones82]

I'm getting so sick of the media and tories plugging ashp's like they are the solution to all our heating needs.

Latest news today, £5k grant towards the cost of replacing a gas boiler with an ashp. What a joke.

Every ashp system I've worked on and installed runs the heating at 40 degrees, great for a new build with fantastic insulation and underfloor heating but just simply wouldn't work in most of the houses in England.

Why is this never mentioned in the media?

Air source should be the last thing we do not the first, the first should be insulation and upsizing pipework.

Just think of all them new builds, built in the last 30 years with microbore pipework, some barely run on gas boilers nevermind air source.

It makes me wonder what other things the tories pretend to know what they are talking about

I think one of Boris' mates manufactures ashp's....

 

[gmartine]

Yep, throw a dog a bone and they don't care who or why it's been thrown.

I was wondering about hydrogen compatible boilers in the mix for zero carbon, doesn't seem much point as the carbon reduction is fairly negligible and producing hydrogen is still mightily expensive atm. Are they really going to manage to ween folks off gas use and hope the market will take up the slack?

 

[Jim09876]

From what I understand the £5000 is not means tested, so we’re subsidising the wealthy too. What happened to Hydrogen through the gas network? This seemed much more practical from my limited understanding.

 

[Jones82]

I've also heard that the gas network will be converted to hyrdogen then gas valves changed in boilers.

I must admit, I'd assumed hydrogen burns with 0 emissions, perhaps this isn't the case.

I think the real answer lies with insulating our homes but perhaps this just isnt feasable in our old english housing stock.

The fact is most of our homes and heating systems are designed around high heat loss and high flow temperatures to compensate.

I wouldn't reccomend an ashp to someone unless it was a new build and by new build I mean brand spanking new

 

[gmartine]

Yep remember those hydrogen powered cars, the only emission is water.

Trouble is hydrogen is currently very expensive to make and I remember reading they cannot piggy back and use the existing high pressure gas pipe network because hydrogen affects the pipework adversly. In other words a new hydrogen pipe network would need to be built.

 

[Chuck]

Every ashp system I've worked on and installed runs the heating at 40 degrees, great for a new build with fantastic insulation and underfloor heating but just simply wouldn't work in most of the houses in England.

IME, they're also damn noisy. This is not a problem for commercial premises but in high-density housing it's going to drive people mad. If heat pumps are the solution then I think that ground-source units are a better bet but even these have their issues.

 

[cjg]

and when every one uses leccy the price goes up because your are stuck with it, you will need a tank fitted for your hot water, and best of all thers a power cut
no heating or cooking , we are allways on the edge in winter with supply, O and of course THE CAR,!!!!!!!
WE ARE DOOOOOOOOOMED

 

[Jim09876]

and when every one uses leccy the price goes up because your are stuck with it, you will need a tank fitted for your hot water, and best of all thers a power cut
no heating or cooking , we are allways on the edge in winter with supply, O and of course THE CAR,!!!!!!!
WE ARE DOOOOOOOOOMED

It’s true the gas man is doomed, we must die for humanity to live.

 

[oz-plumber]

It’s true the gas man is doomed, we must die for humanity to live.

Over reaction Jim.

The Gas Man will take a hiatus from gas boiler installs for a period of time.

ASHP's will be installed on thousands of homes, by companies that have secluded Government Contracts to install these systems.
All tax payers will be contributing to these systems being installed.

When, in 2, 3 or 4 years, these systems become too much of an issue for the homeowner or the Goverment Funded company that installed them, the company will close or go bankrupt, leaving the home owner to contact their local Gas Man to re-install a gas boiler ( at the home owners own expense )

[ In a Nutshell ]

 

[Deleted member 120897]

ASHP's will be installed on thousands of homes, by companies that have secluded Government Contracts to install these systems.
All tax payers will be contributing to these systems being installed.

We had some installed in our properties, with some ugly looking, massive in some rooms radiators/covers, the after about 6 months of being in, they ripped it out and fired up the main boiler house again money well spent

 

[king of pipes]

I'm getting so sick of the media and tories plugging ashp's like they are the solution to all our heating needs.

Latest news today, £5k grant towards the cost of replacing a gas boiler with an ashp. What a joke.

Every ashp system I've worked on and installed runs the heating at 40 degrees, great for a new build with fantastic insulation and underfloor heating but just simply wouldn't work in most of the houses in England.

Why is this never mentioned in the media?

Air source should be the last thing we do not the first, the first should be insulation and upsizing pipework.

Just think of all them new builds, built in the last 30 years with microbore pipework, some barely run on gas boilers nevermind air source.

It makes me wonder what other things the tories pretend to know what they are talking about

I think one of Boris' mates manufactures ashp's....

Totally agree kin waste of time never gonna work in older and small bore properties

 

[SimonG]

Council fitted a load up the dale, ripped them all out 18 months later as the tenants couldn't afford to run them and couldn't keep the houses warm.
Poor design, poor install and old houses, recipe for disaster.

And will the uk really save the whole world by the steps being put in place?

 

[cjg]

but the gov. knows it will work,they told use, ROFLMHO

 

[Ric2013]

To be honest, if it weren't so abysmally complicated, Italy's approach would be better. Here you can (theoretically) connect to biomass district heating and get 110% of the cost back (in practice you sell the stake to a bank which takes 10% so you just get a free install) or you can externally insulate/upgrade a boiler etc and get the same deal.

The problem is Italy is notorious for making the procedure so complex that you risk not meeting the criteria on a technicality, or the government pulling the subsidy when you've already spent the money. So the only people ordering such work are large firms that manage blocks of flats or whatever (effectively finance firms) that have the technical and legal knowledge to get it right, and a finger in the pie. Meanwhile the price of this kind of work has gone through the roof and the government pays... with my money.

As for the UK, Greta hit the nail on the head with her 'net zero bla bla bla'. Very easy to try the technofixes, but what might actually be more effective is if we stopped living in houses that have more than 500sq ft floor area per occupant. Of course, the problem with us having this level of discussion is that we'll never truly understand the 95% of people who aren't technical at all and rely on receiving disinterested and impartial information from product suppliers - and that, or course, applies equally to our politicians. The problem is that what we desperately need is systemic behavioural change - no more holidays abroad, massively reduced transport (actually travel less, live closer to work etc), make our 'stuff' last, and a reduction in consumerism, reduced consumption of meat (especially beef) and meat products. I do wonder if even a majority of Fridays for Future really understand that the reason 'They' are cutting down the rainforest and extracting fossil fuels is that We provide a market for it. Only then can we start lecturing other countries, but that is, of course, also essential (even if a lot of China's emissions is a result of 'stuff' we buy from them). Unfortunately, politicians of nearly all colours refuse to accept we might have to make do with less if we want to survive as a species and while the Green Party may get it, it then starts discussing things like homeopathy and possibly loses a lot of votes in the process.

Having said all that, what I've seen of humanity over the Covid period is making me feel I hope we go extinct as a species as quickly as possible and without taking too many other species with us. We're nothing special. [EDIT - bit harsh?]

 

[Ben-gee]

The happiest and least destructive people are those with a “little life”, the old boys who live/work/play within a few square miles.

The youth laugh at them and think “they’re sad” , however their make do and mend attitude and simple domestic pleasures serve our planet well. Some have only ventured as far as the nearest big town (and they didn’t much care for that) and certainly have never been abroad on holiday.

 

[Jim09876]

To be honest, if it weren't so abysmally complicated, Italy's approach would be better. Here you can (theoretically) connect to biomass district heating and get 110% of the cost back (in practice you sell the stake to a bank which takes 10% so you just get a free install) or you can externally insulate/upgrade a boiler etc and get the same deal.

The problem is Italy is notorious for making the procedure so complex that you risk not meeting the criteria on a technicality, or the government pulling the subsidy when you've already spent the money. So the only people ordering such work are large firms that manage blocks of flats or whatever (effectively finance firms) that have the technical and legal knowledge to get it right, and a finger in the pie. Meanwhile the price of this kind of work has gone through the roof and the government pays... with my money.

As for the UK, Greta hit the nail on the head with her 'net zero bla bla bla'. Very easy to try the technofixes, but what might actually be more effective is if we stopped living in houses that have more than 500sq ft floor area per occupant. Of course, the problem with us having this level of discussion is that we'll never truly understand the 95% of people who aren't technical at all and rely on receiving disinterested and impartial information from product suppliers - and that, or course, applies equally to our politicians. The problem is that what we desperately need is systemic behavioural change - no more holidays abroad, massively reduced transport (actually travel less, live closer to work etc), make our 'stuff' last, and a reduction in consumerism, reduced consumption of meat (especially beef) and meat products. I do wonder if even a majority of Fridays for Future really understand that the reason 'They' are cutting down the rainforest and extracting fossil fuels is that We provide a market for it. Only then can we start lecturing other countries, but that is, of course, also essential (even if a lot of China's emissions is a result of 'stuff' we buy from them). Unfortunately, politicians of nearly all colours refuse to accept we might have to make do with less if we want to survive as a species and while the Green Party may get it, it then starts discussing things like homeopathy and possibly loses a lot of votes in the process.

Having said all that, what I've seen of humanity over the Covid period is making me feel I hope we go extinct as a species as quickly as possible and without taking too many other species with us. We're nothing special. [EDIT - bit harsh?]

“We are nothing special”

Assume the OP is talking about regular folk and not us registered gas safety engineers.

 

[Ric2013]

Of course. There are always exceptional individuals who buck the trend, and RGIs are always special!

 

[pewe]

I am not a plumber, but when I heard about the grant I said to my wife that ASHP's are not the answer due to their low heat output compared to gas boilers.
She mentioned it to a friend whose husband immediately responded saying what was needed was an electric combi boiler - one of his friends has one and says it is just as effective as the gas boilerhe had previously in his 1980's house.
Does this sound likely as these boilers work on the same principle as ASHP's - don't they?

 

[gmartine]

I am not a plumber, but when I heard about the grant I said to my wife that ASHP's are not the answer due to their low heat output compared to gas boilers.
She mentioned it to a friend whose husband immediately responded saying what was needed was an electric combi boiler - one of his friends has one and says it is just as effective as the gas boilerhe had previously in his 1980's house.
Does this sound likely as these boilers work on the same principle as ASHP's - don't they?

Afraid not, they may be effective but they are probably as efficient as a giant kettle.

See the energy rating on this one...

https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/strom...er/791hr#product_additional_details_container

 

[Phill K]

It’s just pie in the sky, what the media and our glorious government neglect to mention is the serious lack of materials needed to drive said revolution.... Tale semiconductors for instance.. Used in everything. Only 3 places in the world make them. Guess what. No one has any......

Heard this morning, Honeywell won’t be starting production of certain thermostats again till 2023... Best get buying boys n girls before the stocks run dry

As for Air source, I’m sure the nice 100 year plus houses with clay bricks, lime plaster will take most kindly to having impervious gypsum insulation added to the outside. Saved the planet but I’m afraid the mould has killed you

 

[pewe]

From what I have read (and this may be total fiction) to get any decent level of heat from an electric combi boiler it needs to have a rating of 20KW +, and anything over 14 KW requires 3 phase electricity supply. Not many domestic properties have 3 phase - and there would probably be an exorbitant charge to install it the way things are going.

 

[Tim Court]

The whole strategy needs a rethink. Who on earth are advising the government? An ASHP will be brilliant for about 0.0001% of the UK housing stock but even then the grant will just about get one delivered to the doorstep. Madness (not the band from Camden).

 

[Deleted member 120897]

Who on earth are advising the government?

The companies that have them to sell?

 

[WC1]

I'm thinking of starting a sideline in ripping out ashps over the next few years once the owners realize what a pup they've been sold.

 

[gmartine]

From what I have read (and this may be total fiction) to get any decent level of heat from an electric combi boiler it needs to have a rating of 20KW +, and anything over 14 KW requires 3 phase electricity supply. Not many domestic properties have 3 phase - and there would probably be an exorbitant charge to install it the way things are going.

That completely depends on the heat load required as 14kw on it's own would be fine to heat most properties, imagine how many rooms would require 2/3kw electrical heaters or less. The issue is the additional power required to heat hot water instanteously especially if it's a combi, crude but imagine electric showers are rated somewhere between 8 and 11kw and you have an idea.

How or why those Screwfix electric combis are A rated for hot water and D rated for central heating god only knows, perhaps someone in the know could elaborate.

 

[John.g]

25% rad output will keep most rooms up to temperature say 500watts, otherwise outside temperature control or heat pump set to 40C will never work as a 2kw rad with a 40C flow temp will only output ~ 570watts. Of course this setting would take hours to heat a room from cold, hence suited to 24/7 opration except that one can blast up the temp for a hour or two in the morning.

 

[Last Plumber]

What a cracking thread and long may it continue!

1/ I am far from convinced (going off what I have read) that anthropological CO2 is the major cause of climate change. I am not saying that we have no effect on the environment because we certainly do but I think there are more important things to address than emissions from gas boilers.
2/ Heat pumps have been around for well over 60 years that know of and they haven't taken off yet, even with government backing. There is good reason too. As mentioned above, most existing homes would need to upgrade radiators or have a boiler or other heat generator as back up/support.
3/ They are too expensive.
4/ They are noisy! Vaillant have won the 'quiet award' but if you look at the figures, I think they are at best similar to the noise level of a conversation e.g. mid 50's in db. I also think that is for the smaller unit or a unit running at its lowest output? Not sure, need to read more on it but can you imagine having one outside every home. I am having this conversation with the neighbour at the moment, who wants to put one down the side of the house (approx 1.5M away) facing my kitchen extract fan. I can hear everything through this fan and I know it will drive me nuts if it goes ahead. Currently doing my utmost to put him off.
5/ I just completed a BEIS survey which was run for the government. As per usual, I thought that the questions were geared toward giving the answers they want as opposed to actually asking your opinion on heat pumps.

In my opinion the government would be better off asking direct questions to the engineers who work in the industry before pushing anything.

 

[Roy_66]

Think you are right that new builds are the place to start. If can't get those right then no hope.

Just accept that the so called MSM journalists are not likely to be up to the job . . .

How about starting a 38degrees petition to lobby Kwasi and co:

Start a petition - Campaigns by You

It's easy to get your petition started, just fill out this simple form and share your petition with your friends and family. We'll help you every step of the way.

you.38degrees.org.uk

For the startup cash to fund, just stop southern HS2 (keep the Northern bits but with traditional ballast). Insulate Britain guys can organise that?

That should then leave enough cement etc. to go round for fixing Britain?

Cheers,

Roy (amateur plumber)

 

[pewe]

It was interesting to watch an interview on the news last night with an Italian in Rome who is upgrading his property.
He was installing insulation (it appeared to be external), new triple glazed windows, solar panels and an air source heat pump - at a cost of 100,000 Euros - and the Italian government was giving him 110,000 towards the cost (the extra 10,000 was an incentive bonus).

Perhaps our Governement should be talking to 'real world' experts and coming up with a prioritised list in order of what would make for an efficient way to make homes energy efficient (starting with better insulation) and giving 'staged' grants as people progressed through the list in the prioritised order - changing boiler would probably be the last thing to address.

 

[SimonG]

That completely depends on the heat load required as 14kw on it's own would be fine to heat most properties, imagine how many rooms would require 2/3kw electrical heaters or less. The issue is the additional power required to heat hot water instanteously especially if it's a combi, crude but imagine electric showers are rated somewhere between 8 and 11kw and you have an idea.

How or why those Screwfix electric combis are A rated for hot water and D rated for central heating god only knows, perhaps someone in the know could elaborate.

I fitted an electric combi a few years back, it was 18kw but could be set in 3kw increments and was set at 12kw.
It had a store of water similar to an oil combi that help it produce hot water.

 

[Ric2013]

We get worked up on stuff that isn't necessarily relevant. The first floor of my extended 2-up 2-down has draught problems I need to address, but it's a hell of a lot better than it was. The ground floor, however, is now very tight. The ground floor has been insulated even though the APC didn't consider it an issue.

The ground floor can be kept to temperature with 1.4kW and that includes heat losses to the first floor due to no interfloor insulation. I don't heat with an ASHP, but I probably could if I could get the first floor up to scratch (some very poor quality DIY timber frame on the extension).

Yet what I'd be encouraged to do is insulate the small section of poorly constructed cavity wall which would probably lead to damp issues (there are mortar bridges in the cavity) and save hardly any energy and fit solar thermal and PV (despite having only the roof area for one of the two).

Within a home... sensible insulation. Draft proofing. Get rid of damp issues first. Then learn to ventilate the house on a daily basis. Not very sexy, is it? But for the cost and materials involved, it certainly beats ASHP.

 

[John.g]

From a running cost point of view then a HP with outside/flow temps of 0C/45C will give a COP of 2.48 which around here would be very competitive with oil and increasingly with gas.
One think to bear in mind though is that a 15kw HP isn't the same as a 15kw oil/gas boiler as a 15kw boiler will always give 15kw ouput but a 15kw HP will give 14.5kw at outside/flow temps of 7C/35C but under the above conditions of 0C/45C "only" 9.8kw, this is because the "thermal input" from the compressor motor is only 3.5/4kw.
However, like it or not, they will be increasingly more common especially with new builds/increasing levels of insulation which leads to lower flow temps = higher COP= more competitive, also smaller units. They are being installed here in a very large proportion of new builds, some have a separate HP for hot water production, others just heat the hot water to ~ 40C which is boosted once/week to 60/65c with a immersion for legionella protection.

 

[gpbeck]

Over reaction Jim.

The Gas Man will take a hiatus from gas boiler installs for a period of time.

ASHP's will be installed on thousands of homes, by companies that have secluded Government Contracts to install these systems.
All tax payers will be contributing to these systems being installed.

When, in 2, 3 or 4 years, these systems become too much of an issue for the homeowner or the Goverment Funded company that installed them, the company will close or go bankrupt, leaving the home owner to contact their local Gas Man to re-install a gas boiler ( at the home owners own expense )

[ In a Nutshell ]

Scandal, public enquiry, demands for compensation.

 

[RoryD]

I'm getting so sick of the media and tories plugging ashp's like they are the solution to all our heating needs.

Latest news today, £5k grant towards the cost of replacing a gas boiler with an ashp. What a joke.

Every ashp system I've worked on and installed runs the heating at 40 degrees, great for a new build with fantastic insulation and underfloor heating but just simply wouldn't work in most of the houses in England.

Why is this never mentioned in the media?

Air source should be the last thing we do not the first, the first should be insulation and upsizing pipework.

Just think of all them new builds, built in the last 30 years with microbore pipework, some barely run on gas boilers nevermind air source.

It makes me wonder what other things the tories pretend to know what they are talking about

I think one of Boris' mates manufactures ashp's....

ASHP's will work if installed correctly in any property. As you rightly point out the pipe sizing and insulation is critical to that.It's always been the case but installers themselves are neglecting to do that...even before the tories came in to encourage migration. In a few short years we are going to be reliant on Russian Gas. They have been proven to use this as a weapon - Ukraine - so we have to find alternatives. It is also environmentally cleaner. I think this place is great to share professional views and advice. My experience is that things get messy when we start getting political mate. What needs to happen is that installers should be more honest when quoting, fitting and 'effing off' will have the system working but it will cost a fortune to run if pipework isn't upgraded. This is good technology.

 

[jim843]

I’m glad this is being discussed.

My home was built 1890. End terrace. Totally unfit for modern living! I’ve spent last 7 years renovating as best I can: insulation in loft, under floor, etc. But walls are solid in a few places. There wasn’t a damp proof course so I fit one where I could.

I have solar panels and would love to reduce carbon emissions but based on what I’ve read a heat pump will not work well in a house like mine.

To me the solution is insulated render but I imagine the cost on a 3 storey would be unaffordable.

Plus my back wall backs onto the neighbours yard. Can’t imagine they’d be happy if I remove 200mm from their already tiny yard with thick insulation!