Logic Combi ESP1 35 always showing demand for Central heating

[theboyroberts]

Hi folks,

I've got a potential problem with my Logic Combi ESP1 35. When the boiler is set to Central Heating and Hot water mode, the boiler indicates that there is a constant Demand for Central heating.

When the thermostats (TP5000 Si) are turned off (both pulled from the wall and also simply by turning off the heating either via temperature or timer) boiler continues to fire. The boiler indicates that the temperature of the system is always around the 50c mark and as soon as the temperature drops, the boiler kicks in and heats the water again.

I have a dual zone system with some form of valve system which is controlled successfully via the thermostats (photo attached) and as the radiators do not get hot unless triggered by one of the two thermostats i can only assume that it is working as expected.

Initially I believed that this was by design, however after finding a similar post on this site, I'm now not too sure.

I suppose my question is this; when the two thermostats are set to off, should the boiler be continuing to heat that water system or should it go into standby mode and allow the temperature of the system to drop until the thermostat kicks in to show a demand for central heating?

I've also included a picture of the thermostat wiring, which I believe to have been correctly wired.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Shaun

 

[Scott_D]

Sounds like it’s not wired correctly.
How old is the house?

 

[Deleted member 120897]

Sounds like a link may have been left in.

 

[John.g]

Zone valves normally give the run signal to the boiler via auxiliary (end) contacts which switch a permanent live to fire it, the motorized valves are closing but one of the contacts may still be closed, the boiler will then continue to fire controlled by its own thermostat.

 

[theboyroberts]

Morning folks,

Thanks for the quick replies; its appreciated.

OK, so the boiler shouldn't be be receiving the demand for heating call until the thermostats kick in. At least I now know that its not wired correctly.

I can see that the zone valves have a wire which drops through the floor and I believe to the boiler, so this may be where the problem is as John.g mentions. I'll open the floor plate (white box near the valves) later to see if I can spot the problem.

As for the age of the house; its just over 2.5 years old and has just left the warranty period. I have dropped the builders a mail about this as if the system has been wired incorrectly, it should be covered by them, either as a good will gesture or perhaps via the 10 year NHBC building cover.

 

[Deleted member 123817]

It could still be wired correctly but one of the zone valves may be faulty and not opening it's end switch when it closes, tne HW will still work as it takes priority over the CH.
If it's always behaved this way then probably wiring problem.

 

[Deleted member 120897]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure nhbc wouldn’t cover it. I think they’re more for the building works, eg roofs etc.

 

[exedon2]

I would go for failed valve danfoss aren't the best.
Check to see if manual lever moves freely they are pronne to sticking open.

 

[John.g]

Should be relatively easy to check out at the junction box in front of the two zone valves. Each valve actuator will have 4 or 5 (if earth wired).
Brown&blue and grey&orange. (+yellow/green earth wire).
The brown wire is live from the room stat etc with call for heat and opens the valve via the motor and the blue neutral.
The grey wire is always (permanently) live and the end switch connects this supply to the orange wire and on to the boiler when the valve opens.
With motorized valve de energised (Shut) there should still be 230V at the grey wire but nothing at the orange wire, a multimeter can easily check this out.

 

[theboyroberts]

Hi folks,

Attached is a picture of my floor junction box.

John.g - to perform the test you mentioned above, I believe I need to connect the multi-meter (also shown in a picture) to 3rd and 4th points in the connector block when both of the thermostats are powered off?

If the wiring is correct (which it looks like it is), I should get a 0 reading?

Thanks again

Shaun

 

[Deleted member 120897]

You currently have your multimeter set to Amps, and more specifically microamps, this could damage your meter. Select Voltage which is the V~ and use the 600 setting (600 is more than 230/240 vac). Yes the reading should be zero Volts, testing between the orange and blue.

 

[theboyroberts]

Thanks Undertrained.

Tested the connection and 0 volts when thermostats are off, and just under 240 when they are on.

I'll take a look at the wiring in the boiler now.

 

[John.g]

I'm a bit slow electrically so can someone point out the actual colour codes from the (any) zone valve and point out clearly which are the permanently wired ones for supply to the microswitch and also the wires connected to each microswitch out, both orange wires appear to be connected together in one connector block, I can see the two brown wires separately connected into the blocks so presume that they are via the roomstats and drive the motors?.

 

[Deleted member 120897]

I'm a bit slow electrically

You and me both

However, I’ve just noticed the usual permanent live (grey) is connected to what is usually the neutral (blue)? seems Incorrect imo.

 

[theboyroberts]

Just opened the boiler front up and I've found that the room stat link is still hooked in using the standard pre-installed wire, so it's always going to be on regardless of what the rest of the system is doing.

I see that there's a connector block in the local fused spur which is connecting the black wire from the thermostat circuit to the wire connected to the boiler. This black wire is taped off at the boiler end. Do I simply need to connect this wire to the room stat connector using another piece of wire and a connector block to make the circuit?

Cheers

Shaun

 

[Deleted member 120897]

Post #3 conclusive then? #smug I would be contact them to find out why the link was left in and room stats not connected , unless you know of any other reason?

 

[theboyroberts]

It’s a new build and I’m the first owner, so this is how it was installed.

I’ve already been in touch, but I’m not expecting them to offer any help.

What can I do myself to resolve?

 

[John.g]

Just opened the boiler front up and I've found that the room stat link is still hooked in using the standard pre-installed wire, so it's always going to be on regardless of what the rest of the system is doing.

I see that there's a connector block in the local fused spur which is connecting the black wire from the thermostat circuit to the wire connected to the boiler. This black wire is taped off at the boiler end. Do I simply need to connect this wire to the room stat connector using another piece of wire and a connector block to make the circuit?

Cheers

Shaun

This "black wire from the thermostat circuit", is it live with either one of the stats calling and is it dead only when both switched out?.

 

[John.g]

You and me both

However, I’ve just noticed the usual permanent live (grey) is connected to what is usually the neutral (blue)? seems Incorrect imo.

I was looking from left to right, so 9&10 or 3&4 from right!. the two orange wires from micro switches then to the boiler via black wire, so replace link with this? as suggested.

 

[theboyroberts]

I suspect it will be as I tested it at the valve end.

How do I test this at the boiler end? Would i attach the multimeter to the black wire and then one onto the blue neutral?

 

[John.g]

Yes, that seems correct.

 

[theboyroberts]

I can confirm that the black wire is dead when there is no call for central heating and the goes live at 240V when the call for central heating is activated via the thermostats.

I'm assuming that I'm going to need some form of switch which is off when there's no power and switches on when there is power?

 

[John.g]

If the link is linking a permanent live to a boiler switched live, then if it is removed and if the 4th terminal from left is live and the third from left is dead that the black wire from the stats goes in here (third from left) but this is just my reading of it and may be incorrect so someone else on here may advise you.

 

[theboyroberts]

The wire that I was referring to being being live is the one in the attached picture at the boiler end. So, I'm confident that the wires in the airing cupboard are correct and there's a live feed which activates when the thermostats trigger the call for central heating.

Is the solution to put a relay switch in the boiler with the following wiring?

Please forgive my diagram!

 

[John.g]

What is that red link "linking??.

 

[theboyroberts]

The red linking came as part of the boiler and is referenced in the instructions. See the picture attached.

 

[Deleted member 120897]

So, I'm confident that the wires in the airing cupboard are correct

I wouldn’t be so sure, as I’ve seen a defect, which I pointed out earlier.

Is the solution to put a relay switch in the boiler with the following wiring?

No relay is require, and if you do it as per your diagram, your likely to kill your boilers pcb, and pop the fuse. Probably best getting a gas safe registered engineer in competent in wiring heating systems as well. That way, the case seal to your boiler can be checked (not recommended that a non gas safe person removes) and it’ll be fixed properly. For the time being, you can continue to use the heating, just by adjusting the temperature at your boiler.

 

[theboyroberts]

First up, thanks for everyone's help so far; its really appreciated.

Undertrained - I agree that I should get someone in, and most likely will. However, one thing which I'm struggling to understand is how the demand for central heating could every work without a relay with the way in which it is currently wired?

As I see it (total layman, so I'm more than likely wrong) the room stat linking wire will need to be removed and replaced with some form of switch which controls the demand for central heating based on external factors such as a thermostat. Without a switch/relay how will the demand for central heating ever be anything other than always on?

 

[John.g]

Good advice. Purely from a interest point of view I see it as the roomstats via the timer/programmer are powered from a permanent live, the roomstat outs are combined (orange wires, as per S plan) as one (switched) live and I would have thought would normally be connected in terminal 3 (link removed) and supply the switched live to the boiler for CH control.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

It’s as easy as removing the red link and installing the black wire in where the right hand terminal where the red link one eg closest to the live terminal

 

[John.g]

Terminal (from left) 3 Shaun if terminal 4 is live with link removed?? (post 15).

 

[Deleted member 120897]

It’s as easy as removing the red link and installing the black wire in where the right hand terminal where the red link one eg closest to the live terminal

EditEd, I see it now

 

[theboyroberts]

Just like the attached ShaunCorbs?

 

[theboyroberts]

John.G - not sure if you've noticed, but there's blue sleeves on the grey wires.

 

[Deleted member 120897]

John.G - not sure if you've noticed, but there's blue sleeves on the grey wires.

That just denotes the grey wires are being used as neutral wires.
My bad, just noticed the grey from your zone valves are connected to lives, the neutrals are connected to grey sleeved wires acting as neutrals. So yes, just connect up as Shaun has said, just the black wire to the terminal closest to the incoming live - NO LINKS!